GS: I think there are two
reasons. One is because they're not
sure what the word means. But if they
go to the dictionary or look at any
of the definitions, they feel comfortable
with it, and they say "OK". The second
one is they do know what it means
- and realize that either they disagree
with it, if they really believe in
the traditional position of women,
or fear the punishment that it will
bring - and it does bring punishment.
It brings great mutual support, but
it also brings punishment. If you
say you're for equal pay for yourself,
that's a reform, but if you say you're
a feminist, then you're talking about
all women as a caste, and that really
is a very basic change. I think by far
the larger problem is that people
don't know what it means, and that
has been increased by a dozen years
of Reagan and Bush, the right wing,
trying to make "feminism" and "liberalism"
and "affirmative action" into bad
words.
MS: WHAT IS YOUR DEFINITION
OF BEING A FEMINIST TODAY? I'VE NOTICED
IN SOME OF YOUR WRITINGS THAT YOU
OFTEN SPECIFY THAT YOU ARE A "RADICAL
FEMINIST".
GS: I would still go along
with the dictionary definition of
someone, which can be a woman or a
man, who believes in the full social,
economic, political equality of women
and men. To say "radical feminist"
is only a way of indicating that I
believe the sexual caste system is
a root of race and class and other
divisions. But whether or not one
believes that, one may act exactly
the same in the present, in the short
run.
MS: HAVING BEEN A FEMINIST
LEADER OVER THE YEARS, WOULD YOU HAVE
PREDICTED THAT THE WOMEN'S MOVEMENT
WOULD BE FARTHER ALONG THAN IT IS
TODAY? DOES OUR PROGRESS MEET WITH
YOUR EXPECTATIONS?
GS: I think I would have been
surprised twenty or twenty-five years
ago to find that the women's movement
is as popular and strong and far along
as it is. But considering its numbers
and popularity in public opinions
polls, of the issues and so on, I
also would have thought that the structure
would have changed more, that in terms
of the government and business and
education and the structures of our
lives, there would have been more
change. I think I was too pessimistic
about how much such a radical change
could spread, but too optimistic about
the state of democracy in this country.
I thought that once we got the majority
everything would be fine. But, of
course, look at the abortion issue,
seventy percent of the country supports
a woman's right to abortion, but look
at the forcefulness and violence of
the opposition.
MS: THERE IS A PATRIARCHY
IN THE POLITICAL SYSTEM OF THIS COUNTRY.
WHAT'S NEEDED TO CHANGE THAT AND HOW
DO YOU SEE THE POLITICAL SYSTEM SUPPRESSING
WOMEN?
GS: The electoral system is
not where change starts - it usually
starts in communities and from the
bottom up - but it is where change
can be stopped. So it's very important
that it be representative, which it
isn't right now, for the most part.
And it's certainly even less representative
in state legislatures than it is in
Washington. There are a lot of problems,
money being chief among them, and
how much it costs to run. But the
problem we can solve is the vote.
Right now, this is the least participatory
democracy in the world. Only about
thirty-nine percent of the electorate
voted in the last election. In India,
seventy percent of the electorate
votes, even with all the difficulties
of that huge population and illiteracy.
Women are still not voting in the
same percentage of our potential voters
as men are. And that's even more true
of poor women and young women and
other specific groups. So, the most
important activity for the next year
and a half, until the Presidential
election, is registering and getting
out to vote. Sixty-five percent of
eligible voters aren't registered
at all. We make it tougher to vote
in this country than any country in
the world. In Canada, for instance,
two employees of the government go
to every household to make sure you're
registered and the polls stay open
longer. So, we have to both change
the system, and do it anyway by going
through our apartment houses, our
blocks, our families, our telephone
books and making sure that everyone
is registered to vote and gets out
and votes for themselves - out of
self respect - that they know the
issues and vote for themselves. If
only a couple hundred more people
in each precinct had come out in the
last election, for instance, we wouldn't
have lost control of Congress. Every
immigrant group has had to deliver
its own vote. In a way, women are
a psychic immigrant group. But we've
been depending on the media and the
political parties to deliver our vote.
That just doesn't work. We have to
do it ourselves.
MS: YOU HAVE A CHAPTER IN
YOUR LATEST BOOK CALLED "REVALUING
ECONOMICS". HOW DOES THE NEED TO REVALUE
OUR SYSTEM OF ECONOMICS RELATE TO
THIS IMBALANCE OF POWER? CAN THERE
BE ANY REAL PROGRESS WITHOUT, AS YOU
PUT IT, A STRONG WOMEN'S ECONOMIC
DEVELOPMENT MOVEMENT?
GS: There are women's economic
development movements from the bottom
up, and there are also women business
owners who also deserve our support.
I think we, as consumers, should make
an effort to purchase goods and services
from companies that either are owned
by women or are fair to women. Up
to now, we've been mostly, understandably
concerned with equal and comparable
pay. We need to now also be concerned
with owning our own businesses, however
small they may be. There have to be
a lot of us who have jobs we can't
be fired from if we're going to have
a strong movement. We also have to
re-define work, so that the work of
caring for children and doing human
maintenance in the home is counted
as productive work, has attributed
value. That means changing the national
system of accounts. And we also have
to see to it that men raise children
and work in the home as much as women
do. Otherwise, women always end up
having two jobs. That's just not possible.
You can't do two jobs.
MS: IT COMES DOWN TO ASKING
PEOPLE TO RECONSTRUCT THEIR UNDERSTANDING
OF GENDER ROLES AND THEIR WHOLE SYSTEM
OF VALUES.
GS: Right. In a way, what happens
to men is called "politics" and what
happens to women is called "culture".
We've taken one giant step forward
by convincing the majority of the
country that women can do what men
can do. But the next step is convincing
the country that men can do what women
can do. So far, we don't believe it
ourselves.
MS: HOW CAN A MAN CONTRIBUTE
TO THE WOMEN'S MOVEMENT? YOU SAID
EARLIER THAT MEN CAN BE FEMINISTS
- IS THERE A MISCONCEPTION THAT TO
BE A PART OF THE FEMINIST MOVEMENT
YOU HAVE TO BE A WOMAN?
GS: If you think about the
racial parallel it gets more clear.
I'm white and you're white but we
can work for racial equality. We become
very good workers for racial equality
only once we realize that we're also
being ghettoized. We're being culturally
deprived. We're stuck in a white ghetto.
Once men realize that they are also
deprived - not as much as women, just
as whites are not as deprived as blacks
- but there is a full circle of human
qualities we all have a right to.
And they're confined to the "masculine"
ones, which are seventy percent of
all of them, and we're confined to
the "feminine" ones, which are thirty
percent. We're missing more, but they're
still missing a lot. If a man fights
to be his whole self, to be creative,
to express emotions men are not supposed
to express, do jobs men are not supposed
to do, take care of his own children
- all of these things are part of
the feminist movement.
MS: THE ABORTION DEBATE CONTINUES
TO INTENSIFY, AS DOES INTIMIDATION
AND VIOLENCE AGAINST DOCTORS, CLINIC
WORKERS AND PATIENTS, WHICH HAS BECOME
A NATIONAL FORM OF TERRORISM. HOW
DO YOU SEE THE DEBATE OVER ABORTION
BEING RESOLVED OR IS IT GOING TO BE
A CONSTANT FIGHT?
GS: I think it's going to be
a fight for a very long time because
it is the bottom line. How women got
to be inferior, how patriarchy got
born, so to speak, is because of controlling
women's bodies as the means of reproduction.
That's the definition of patriarchy.
By saying what seems to us a very
reasonable and just thing, which is
we would like to control our own bodies,
we're seizing control of the means
of reproduction. That's quite radical.
We should understand reproductive
freedom is not just another issue
- this is the issue. You'll find right
wingers who will be anti-abortion
even though they know it's costing
money. It's the one issue I know of
in which they will go against their
financial interest because there's
a deeper form of control. We also
need to keep explaining that we're
talking about reproductive freedom,
and that means the freedom to have
children as well as not to have children.
We would go to the same lengths to
make sure that a woman isn't coerced
into having an abortion as we would
to make sure she has access to a safe
one.
MS: WHAT'S YOUR PERCEPTION
OF WHAT AMERICA'S ROLE SHOULD BE IN
THE GLOBAL WOMEN'S MOVEMENT?
GS: What women in other countries
ask us to do and want us to do. Not
imposing, but responding.
MS: SO YOU DON'T SEE IT AS
AMERICA'S RESPONSIBILITY TO BE CRUSADERS
ON BEHALF OF WOMEN RIGHTS AROUND THE
WORLD?
GS: If we're asked to be, yes.
But only if we're asked to be, because
feminism is about giving each other
the power to make decisions. We don't
know what those women need. It's up
to them to decide.
MS: WHAT ADVICE
WOULD YOU GIVE TO THE PUBLIC ON BECOMING
POLITICALLY ACTIVE?
GS: If you don't stand up for
yourself politically, no one else
will. So we have to use our votes
and our dollars and our voices to
be engaged and involved in these issues.
In every other arena we know that
if we're not involved in a decision,
it won't reflect our wishes. But many
of us here have been conned into ceding
our powers in the political arena.
One vote does in fact count. I was
campaigning for two or three months
before the last election, and some
of the people I campaigned for, very
good candidates, won by a few thousand
votes, a few hundred votes, or in
one case, I think, only four votes.
If only a couple of hundred more people
per precinct had voted, we wouldn't
have right wing control of Congress
now. Don't let the process overwhelm
you - break it down into doable chunks.
MS: THERE HAS BEEN FRUSTRATION
AND RESISTANCE ALONG THE WAY, YET
YOU'VE CONTINUED TO PERSEVERE. WHERE
DO YOU DRAW THAT STRENGTH FROM, TO
KEEP UP THE FIGHT?
GS: First, I have companionship.
I was always working at Ms. Magazine,
where we're very different, but at
least we share a lot of the same values.
And also, I was going around to speak
or organize and meeting other people.
We're communal creatures, we can't
do it all by ourselves. I think it's
much more difficult for a woman who
is isolated in her office or her factory
and feels like the only person who
thinks the way she thinks. We each
need to find three or four or six
or twelve people and meet with them
once a week and keep this kind of
community support. Also, we need to
think about the alternative. Think
about the reality of the alternative.
Suppose you don't do this difficult
thing. Is life going to be so wonderful?
I don't think so. It's usually easier
to stand up for oneself and ones'
group in the longrun.
MS: DO YOU FEEL OPTIMISTIC
ABOUT THE FUTURE?
GS: Yes, I'm optimistic. But
I also know nothing will happen automatically.
Change depends on what you and I do
everyday.
Click here for Marianne's latest interview with Gloria Steinem!
